First Friday Feedback: March 2025

In this month's episode of First Friday Feedback, Phil welcomes Meagan MacBean, Cannon Adjunct Instructor and Estate Planning Attorney. Meagan shares her journey from law school to becoming a trusted educator and attorney and how she simplifies complex estate planning concepts through relatable explanations and visual diagrams.

Listen in for valuable insights on effective client communication and learning practical strategies to build trust through clarity and simplicity - essential skills for anyone in financial services seeking to enhance their professional impact.


Resources:

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Meagan MacBean - LinkedIn

Transcript

Hi, I'm Phil Buchanan with Cannon Financial Institute. We produce the podcast series Monday Morning Mojo, The Cannon Curve, and Cannon Connect. Each of these podcasts invites listeners to email or text their feedback, comments, and questions. They are all answered right here on First Friday Feedback. If you're new to our podcast, go ahead and subscribe to all four and get engaged by sharing your perspective.

Life is about the journey. So, let's go for the ride. Good morning, it is Philip Buchanan with First Friday Feedback for March 2025. You know, each year, Cannon has the opportunity to interface with somewhere between 15, 000 to 17, 000 professionals in the financial services area. Those could be individuals who are client facing, they could be individuals from the audit compliance and risk management area, uh, it could be a private banker, it could be.

Technically, anyone in financial services, but one of the most common comments that I hear back from people who've engaged Cannon and who've experienced Cannon is their impression of the facilitators, the coaches, andthe instructors with whom they interface time and time again. I hear the story. You know, you can tell that she's not only just really smart, but she's got the ability to take all of that complexity.

The And simplify it down into a way that's easy to understand and into a way that's digestible. Well, that very comment was a comment or is a comment that I very often hear about today's guest on First Friday Feedback, Cannon Adjunct Faculty Member Meagan MacBean. Meagan, welcome to First Friday Feedback.

Thank you so much, Phil. So, Meagan, you are a hot-to-trot estate planning attorney. You know all there is to know about grits, scraps, islets, prints, and all the technical pieces, but I'm guessing that at some point in time, you weren't this knowledgeable individual. You didn't have all these great communication skills.

Give us a little bit of your story. Give us a little bit of background of how you ultimately came to be a part of the Buchanan faculty. Yeah, so I haven't always been a subject matter expert. I have always wanted to teach and really enjoyed teaching. When I was in law school, I figured out that the best way for me to study was often to explain topics to other folks.

So I had a study group and oftentimes in that study group, We would get together and I would end up kind of explaining difficult legal concepts to my study group and that helped me learn as well. So I've always known that I had a knack for teaching and that I wanted to teach. And so, but. You know, needed to go out and practice law after law school and figured I'd just figure out a way to, to do that one day.

You know, how can I kind of back my way into teaching, so to speak. And so, joined my first firm out of law school. They had an attorney who is an ACT Tech fellow, focused solely on trust in estates and planning, and he needed some help. And so I just started helping him, and then I started building my own practice area.

In that, especially at that time as a young associate, servicing some of those clients that maybe it didn't make sense for him to service, who his hourly rate was too high for people who maybe needed a more simple plan, but learning as I went. And then I got some good experience there and joined a bank as a trust officer and did the opposite of what most people do and went back to the practice of law, right?

I guess I just am a glutton for punishment and I love billing an hour. So I went back to the practice of law because I missed that planning piece. And I missed doing, I kept trying to practice law as a trust officer, which you can't do, right? So I went back to the practice of law. In the meantime, I had done some adjunct instruction at Mississippi State and Meridian, which is where I was at the time I went to Ole Miss for law school.

And then I went through Cannon as a student. I started in trust school, but then finished three, actually, after I'd come back to the practice of law, because Cannon taught me more about gift and estate tax than law school ever did. Right? Right. I mean, in terms of. Those kind of complicated concepts. So went through Cannon and then just reached out to you guys and said, can I teach for you?

And, you know, did a couple of practice rounds and, and I'm now, you know, doing that on a regular basis and really, really enjoy it. It's, it's, uh, I love teaching in a way that, I mean, I love practice, practice of law, don't get me wrong, but it's just, it's something about like looking out over a room of students and seeing those light bulbs go off.

It's just really fulfilling. It is. And, you know, respectfully, there are a lot of, a lot of professionals that think that they, you know, would enjoy teaching or even do enjoy teaching. But at the end of the day, the students don't get quite the experience that they're looking for. And I tell people all the time.

You know, it is not difficult to find technically proficient professionals in business or in law schools or in journalism schools, etc. What is, what is powerful, what is, what is so unique is when you've got somebody who is technically proficient but also is a great communicator. Has the ability to take, again, the complex and to simplify it.

And, you know, it's one of the things that, and you've been on both sides of the equation here. You've been, or obviously now, a practicing attorney, but you've also been, you know, a trust officer. And, you know, we hear it from end user clients. We hear it from wealthy families. That at times they feel like they're being talked to and and not talked with.

And that to me is is the ultimate rub off. You've got all this body of knowledge. But how do you use the knowledge in conversations with clients? And you do that so well. And so that that that's the question that a lot of our our students have is What are the, the strategies, what are the tactics that, uh, and I'll, I'll ask this of you, Meagan, that, that you use to take these esoteric, complex ideas and just simplify them?

How have you, how have you developed that skill? So, you know, I think some of it is just as you are, some of it's a little inherent, right? I think, I, I think that, like you said, oftentimes there are great subject matter experts. Who don't have the ability to kind of break concepts down, but I think about, oftentimes, if I was going to explain something to my grandmother, you know, what would I say to her and still get the big topics, still get her to understand, right, or explain it like a fifth grader, right, or however you want to think that in your mind.

And so that is both for, for Cannon students and for clients who are different audiences, obviously, that the clients are may have no. background in the conversations that we're going to have. Students are in this day to day, but oftentimes early in their careers, they're, or have just transitioned into being trust officers and they're learning kind of this big knowledge base for the first time.

But with both of those, I just try to think, how do I, especially if you've got clients who, you know, in, in South Carolina often are wealthy and they don't know it until you put down, you know, that there may be have lots of And have are just, you know, good old cattle farmer. Let's use him as an example.

And when he comes into my office and I put that asset list together and I circled that bottom number and realized we have a taxable estate and we've got to do some tax planning and some generation skipping transfer tax planning. And this guy had no idea that he had a taxable estate and farms every day.

Right. And so I've got to explain to him. How does how does the how does the gift in a state tax system work? And how does the generation skipping transfer tax system work? And so I just think, how would I explain it to my grandmother? And a lot of times that's talking less about statutes and, you know, exact numbers and talking about.

You know, just here's generation skipping transfer tax. They don't want you to be able to skip a generation, right? And, and you kind of talk through why did, why did this all get passed in the first place? Because we got clever and we were trying to, you know, pass that money down on to the generation. So we didn't get taxed at the first two levels.

And then the IRS said, you know, we gotcha. Um, and so passed, um, you know, in 1981 generation skipping transfer tax. And so just having those conversations where, um, Okay. Where you try to explain it like you would to, to your grandma, I think is the way I think about it. Well, you know, it's, I think a lot of it too is your orientation.

You, you made a comment early on that you learn best by teaching others. And one of the things that really great teachers do is they are able to relate the concepts to the individuals they're teaching. In other words, they're able to use examples, parables, narratives, stories that Connect to the learner and don't just make sense to them.

And so I think about the conversation that you're having with your grandmother, you know, it's a and we'll take generations giving transfer tax. Now, you know, you know, They would, they would want you, the IRS would want you to give the money to dad. And so there's one tax and then they won't, you know, when it comes to me, there's another tax, but we got really smart.

And he just said, Hey, skip that and give it to me, which I kind of like the IRS hates, you know, that's the, that's the story narrative that. Allows people toe. Ah, I get it. And, you know, you talked about younger people in the business. And, you know, you've heard the term. I've heard the term. I still feel it from time to time.

It's called the imposter syndrome that, you know, you're in a situation and you really need. You feel like an imposter because why would they want me on their board? Why would, you know, why would this client engage me to do this? And I think a lot of young people in our business suffer from time to time that imposter syndrome.

And so the natural reaction, if if you feel the imposter syndrome, is you rely on. All of this, this technical knowledge in this, this technical prowess that you've got, and you try to use that to demonstrate credibility. And what a lot of people don't understand is that's the exact wrong thing to do. That doesn't demonstrate credibility.

That demonstrates an inability to communicate effectively. And that's really what causes people to lose trust. Would you agree or disagree with that? Yeah, and I agree with that, Phil, and I'd also say that clients see through that, right? I mean, if, if we all know, if all you can do is kind of come into a conversation and say a lot of big words, I mean, I see this a lot with folks who are talking with me, maybe CPAs or investment advisors who have referred clients to me and they throw out all of these, well, we think they might need this type of trust or that type of trust.

And I'll say, well, okay, what, what do you want the terms to be? What, what are you thinking? And they won't know beyond, I heard that, that an islet is good and you know, some CLE or continuing education and they want to look like they're adding value to their clients and like they're smart. But then when you dig into the surface, there's nothing, you know, there's nothing there.

And so clients see through that. There are other members of the team see through that. So I think you're right. That's not what, you know, unless you've got very sophisticated clients and even then. You know, if they're not attorneys, if they're not trust officers, wealth management folks, even if they're very smart, because we're all smart in our different ways, they don't understand these big concepts and they don't want you to throw acronyms at them, right?

They want you to get down to what does this mean for me? And my planning and then how does that look after I pass away, right? Can you start talking about trust and oh, we, we need to do a bypass trust and a mayoral trust and then you start talking and they say, well, wait, well, so how does my wife access the principle, you know, and there's all they want to know how is this going to look in practice.

And, you know, I can cite revenue code statutes all you want. Clients don't care about that. They want to know what does it say. Tell me how it applies to my life. You know, one of the most brilliant things that I have seen, I've seen some attorneys use this. I've seen some whelp shops use this. But to take the legal document, the legal plan, and reduce it to pictures, reduce it to charts, reduce it to graphs that shows exactly what happens.

They show the pools of funds kept intact. They put, you know, here's how you access that information. And they give it to people in pictures because Every adult can, can, can watch the flow of funds on a graph. Not every adult can read the, you know, pecuniary language found within, you know, chapter and verse and et cetera.

And, you know, that, that whole thing of simplification, if the industry could just get off their intellectual high horse and focus on simple, plain spoken communication. You know, I think the world would be a better place. I agree, and I'll tell you, I, we included a diagram with every one of our Even if we're doing, even if we're not doing tax planning, it's the first thing.

There's a cover letter, an asset list, which says, if I'm assuming everything you told me is right, because if not, you know, this plan might not work. And then a diagram that just like you exactly, like you said, shows how all the assets flow and the summary of the terms of each of those trusts, because that picture is more helpful than you can know.

And so I do think that. That's what's most important to clients is walking away, you know, to your point about maybe they can't read the language. That's what the pecuniary formula language. That's what they rely on us for is to make sure we get that language. Right? That's why it's so important that you understand it.

Right? And then can explain it to them and make sure because if I get it wrong, I'm committing malpractice. Right? So, but they're relying on you to have the expertise, but also to be able to explain to them what you're doing. Okay. So final, final question here. And again, we get asked this question a lot.

And I'd be interested in your perspective. How did you develop the comfort level in front of groups to Make presentations to to be engaged to be able to speak with a clear voice. You know, you do that so well. And again, some of that is is innate. And I get that. But have there been particular programs that you've done it?

trainings that you've done, coaching that you've gotten that, that has allowed you to, to, to be so not only thoughtful in your approach, but, but engaging and at times charismatic and getting people excited about the subject. You know, I haven't done any coaching or any training, but I've just had a lot of practice, right?

I think that's what is the most for me, right? And I do think some of it is inherent and innate, and it has to do with personality. You can't be an introvert. And get in front of, and maybe, maybe some can turn it on. My husband can turn it on when he needs to, but you know, I have to be able to, to be able to get in front of a group and open your mouth and not just be crippled with anxiety.

I think some of that is inherent, but it's also just practice. I mean, I've, I've obviously as an attorney. I speak for a living, right? I have to get in front of judges and courts and make arguments and talk to my clients all the time and talk on the phone, which the younger generation does not like to talk on the phone, you know, so all of that.

And then just practice over the years. I mean, I think I did my first public speaking at Palmetto Girls State when I was in High school, right? And so, and then I remember I spoke to the Chiral where I'm from Rotary Club in high school about my experience at Palmetto Girls State and I think that was my very first time I ever spoke in front of a group and that was local business people.

And then I've just been doing it ever since. So I think it's practice. And then, you know, over time, you, especially if you're doing, if you become a subject matter expert over time, honestly, talking more and more helps you get more comfortable with the material too, right? And so, yeah, just practice makes perfect, I think.

Well, I do believe that you're right and a big shout out to the experience that you had at Girl State. I did Boy State when I was in high school. And I think, for high schoolers, that some of the best experiences that you can get is to attend your state's Boy State or Girl State. And you, you can't go through the local Rotary program and get that.

But I, you know, I've got friends today. That was Jeezy Pete; that was almost 40 years ago. And I've, I've still got, uh, well, it was 40. Well, it was over 40 years ago, and I've still got great friends that were formed there, so that is fantastic. Well, Meagan MacBean, thank you for being part of this program, but more importantly, thank you for being the type of individual that our students can relate to, who can learn from not just, again, the technical information that you're able to share, but the stories and the examples of the ways that they can take that information and communicate.

People ask me all the time, you know, what's the, what's the uniqueness or what's the difference in Cannon? And I always say the same thing. You can Google an intentionally defective grantor trust. You can Google a grantor retained annuity trust. At Cannon, we want to empower our graduates to have that communication ability.

So that they are sought out by clients because of that skill and that ability that they build a professional attractiveness and represent their organizations as elite communicators. And Meagan, it's because of people like you that we're able to do that. So thanks for all the work that you do. Thank you so much.

First Friday Feedback is a production of Cannon Financial Institute. Sarah Jones is Executive Director. McCall Chamberlain is the Managing Producer. Editing and mixing is done by Danny Brunner. And so, until we talk again next month, I'm Phil Buchanan, thanking you for being part of the Cannon community.