Episode 107 - Michael Wilson

In this episode of The Cannon Curve, host Phil Buchanan sits down with Michael Wilson, Executive Director of Wealth and Consumer Banking at First Citizens Bank. With more than 25 years of experience leading teams and driving growth, Michael offers a candid look at what it takes to be a bold, strategic leader in today’s financial services landscape.

Michael shares lessons learned from early missteps, why empathy and trust are essential during mergers and acquisitions, and how a servant-leadership mindset can transform organizational culture. He also explores the future of wealth management—from simplifying tech stacks to leveraging AI for better client experiences—and explains why adaptability and human connection are becoming the most critical skills for advisors.

Finally, Michael reflects on the advice he would give his 23-year-old self, offering timeless guidance for anyone striving to lead with vision and purpose. This episode is packed with insights for professionals who want to elevate their leadership and create lasting impact in an evolving industry.

Resources:

Michael Wilson | LinkedIn

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Transcript

Greetings, Cannon Nation, Phil Buchanan here with the November edition of the Cannon Curve. 10 years ago when we were launching the concept and the idea of the Cannon Curve, I spent several months in conversations with senior executives and CEOs of financial institutions all across the country, getting their perspectives, getting their insights as to what was not only happening within their firm.

But with the individuals task with leading different aspects of their organization, wealth management, obviously being one of them, I received some common themes and feedback from these executives. They talked about the fact that their teams were technically very proficient, very technically sound. They talked about good management skills of the people that were tasked with that responsibility.

But they did share that if there was a gap, it was usually in the area of leadership. Now, we could debate the difference between leadership and management all we want, but great leaders tend to be strategic partners with a vision and a focus to not only build enterprise value, but to create unique, distinctive client experiences.

From that point of view, the Cannon curve was born. Each month we seek to have insightful conversations with business leaders who are executing on that vision and who are doing it at a very, very high and consistent standard. I. Today's guest not only checks all of those boxes, but he's got a demonstrated track record of over 25 years of doing this at multiple institutions and always seeking to elevate the experience the clients have with their organization.

But at the same time, that's strategic partner. Today's guest is Michael Wilson. He is the Executive Director of Wealth and Consumer Banking for First Citizens Bank, an organization that has absolutely been on a tear of expansion over the last three years. Michael Wilson, welcome to the Cannon Curve. Glad to be here, Phil.

So, Michael, you and I met 25 years ago, 25 plus years ago, and at that moment in time, somebody asked about the, the impression that I had of you. I said this, I said, the guy is a bold strategic leader. So my, my question to you is, how did that come about? Where did this pattern of, of boldness and, and strategic view was that taught?

Was that learned? Was it just innate? If you had to go back and, and, and, and say how you developed into that? What are the underpinnings? Yeah, that's a great question, Phil. You, you know, what I think is, is probably all the mistakes I made. I, I think looking at being a leader and more importantly, leading others to where we need them to be in an integrated fashion.

I, and I would tell you that it's fundamentally, it comes back to just doing what's right and put yourself on the other side of the coin. And, and my philosophy usually is. If you wouldn't do it for your mom, don't do it. And, and I think we, if we take that servant leadership type mentality and we do it with a we versus a me can accomplish it, I think what you find at the end is the greater good ultimately rises.

And it's not just, you know, that, that's a lot of hearsay because I know. Probably a lot of the listeners on the thing is like, that's great, but I have budgets, I have corporates, I have this, I have that. And, and we can appreciate that because I have that as well. But I think the boldness comes back to if we do what's right and we know where we need to go, then put the, put the energy behind it and execute as we continue to move forward as, as leaders.

You know, you said something that really resonates with me. The mistakes that we make because all of us, if we're doing anything, if we're, if, if we're, if we're pushing the envelope and and seeking to take an organization to a higher level, we're going to make mistakes. And I shared this story recently. I had a mentor.

Many, many years ago, and I'd made, you know, an error, a mistake in something. And so he was kind of helping me think through, you know, how not to repeat that pattern on a go forward basis. And I, I gave a comment. I said, okay, I, I, I get it. Lesson learned. And his comment back to me, he said, it's great to learn the lesson.

It's more important to apply the lessons. So let me ask this question. What lessons did you learn? Give us an example of, of maybe, hey, this was, this was not the, the greatest idea. This is not the greatest execution of an issue, and how that maybe impacted you additionally, and how you've learned from that and applied that on a go forward basis.

Yeah, it's interesting. I, I, I think over the past couple of, I would say past three or five years organizationally with us acquiring CIT, acquiring Silicon Valley, I, I think in my younger days, I think what I would've done, Phil, is I would've plowed ahead and said, this is the way we're going to do it.

Here's how it is. Take it or leave it and move on. Get it shut down and move forward. I think what we've really learned is to take a step back, look at. The other person's point of view on of what somebody's coming in. Look at the velocity by which we're having to deal with items in the world around us, but more importantly, look at the empathetic view of when you're putting organizations together of the impact of those individuals to their families, but more importantly, if we can win their hearts and minds as to why.

I think that really brings us forward as really true leaders because. It's easy to say we acquire a company. It's easy to say we're gonna fold folks in. It's another one to have them have an understanding of building a clear. Concise strategy before acting and getting buy-in. 'cause once you receive the buy-in and the trust, then you can really start moving down the path on the offense versus defense.

And I think that that's really where you learn over time. Maybe it's just with age, that taking our time, setting a plan, being very descriptive about where you're going and why you're doing it, and then applying those lessons as we go to implement. Well, you, you raised the issue. You've certainly been incredibly active over the last three to five years, expanding the footprint of first citizens.

You mentioned the CIT acquisition. You mentioned Silicon Valley, SVB. You recently announced an acquisition of some BMO operations in the Midwest. You tell us a little bit about your organization. What are you doing and why are you doing it? Yeah, it, it's, it's truly exciting. We, as an organization, are really going long and wide across the US and that's across all industries.

Everything from looking at global funds to commercial to industry verticals. We're one of the largest rail car owners in North America with about 125,000 rail cars, which you'd never believe a large scale bank, but more importantly, it's deep industry verticals. And another example, Phil, which. I know it's to your heart as well.

We have a large wine division, which write a paper as to the, what's happening within the wine industry. And so these deep industry verticals, especially when you get into Silicon Valley and really the innovation economy of how do you bring all of these together and then ultimately, how do you put it together around the clients because they're, they're, they are unique.

An entrepreneur within a. Tool and die manufacturer or an entrepreneur that's owned as a portfolio company, you know, those still entrepreneurial spares are still there. And then how do you bring ideas and concepts to them? When we look at our BMO announcement, which we still are waiting for regulatory approval and other types of approvals, however, really fits in nicely around the consumer.

And I think being able to bring a financial advice and literacy to the consumer and meeting them through an omnichannel. Methodology, I think really is, is it is truly exciting for us because I do think, you know, I, I always term ourselves a lifestyle company, you know, and we as advisors, councils have to make sure that folks have the appropriate literacy and or financial means to hit whatever lifestyle they choose.

Through whatever pattern that they need to hit. So, you know, it's kind of a little different way to look at it rather than just we're an asset management company or investment firm, or just a straight lender. I think it's bringing it all together around the end consumers. I was talking to one of your, one of your industry peers recently talking about you, talking about Frank holding your, your CEO and I made the comment and the individual looked back at me and he was like, you're exactly right.

I view what you, Frank, the, the broader team are doing is one of the most entrepreneurial expressions of financial services that. I've, I've seen in a long time. You, you mentioned, you know, the, the, the lifestyle deal. You mentioned the deep, deep vertical expertise. Where, where does that, where does that, that, that originate?

I mean, is is that, has that been by intent to, to think of yourselves entrepreneurially and, and looking to go deep? Has it been episodic because, hey, an opportunity presents itself. How do you all in, in conversations you have internally, how do, how, how do you think through that? Yeah, I listen, I'm very fortunate.

I think the ownership structure of our organization really lends itself to that. We don't look at things quarter to quarter. We're looking at it in years. Five years in decades, and it really affords the opportunity to think long term. And, and you know it, Phil, you know how it is, it sounds pretty cliche about, oh yeah, we have a five year plan, blah, blah, blah.

The reality is we actually have a five year plan and actually we, we foot back to the five-year plan. And when we're planting seeds or we're thinking about investing in something. We're thinking about what's it going to reap in five and 10 years out, which gives you a completely different lens when you're looking to make decisions.

My ROIs can be a little bit longer, but what ends up happening is as we're continuing to invest today for 5, 10, 15 years, getting an understanding of why you wanna do it and then execute towards that, I think yields results that come in probably quicker than, rather than taking a short-term view just to get something on the books.

Okay, so I, I, I wanna take that thread and pivot just a little bit because having, having the confidence in that five year, 10 year, 15 year plan, it allows you to take advantage of unique opportunities. I think back to Warren Buffett, he says, you know, the best time to in invest in a company is when chaos is thriving.

And, you know, nobody wants to, nobody wants to do a deal. That's, that's your best opportunity. You have and, and certainly for Citizens has a track record of, of doing that. I think back to conversations that you and I had back in the middle of the financial crisis in 2 0 0 8, 2 0 0 9, you were exhibiting a, a remarkable calm given what was happening in the financial services industry and you were deploying resources and capital to, to, to, to strengthen what the organization you were representing at that point in time was doing.

You've taken that same approach, you know, for citizens in the midst of the regional banking, chaos. You know, you had the opportunity with CIT, you had the opportunity with SVB when everything else is, is, is noisy and, and chaos is, is thriving. You, you seem to have this incredible calm to be able to make good decisions.

Tell me about that. Yeah, I think when you look at it, it, it's taken us. Step back. When everyone's running away from the fire, we seem to be running into it. It's kind of a innate. People think you, you, you're absolutely out of your mind. But if you think about it, that's where your opportunities are. And I remember during COVID and the shutdowns and all that, we embarked on an entire fee analysis and raised our fees during COVID.

People thought we were lunacy. It was lunacy for us to go and do that, but to evaluate where we were and we, we thought that we had a tremendous opportunity to reprice the book where we needed to be. And then simultaneously. We also started up during that time a third party securities backed line business and really with a great partner that we're able to bring in a technology partner.

And, and Phil, it was the opportunity when things were slow and a little bit of chaos to look at what clients were gonna need during volatility. And they were gonna need liquidity without selling because markets were selling off in the whipsaw of the macro and, and even the, the equity markets. We're just chaos.

So what we, we decided to do is to really partner up with a company named Supernova, which is a tremendous partner, but really it put the infrastructure in for us to then go third party verticals as well as to overlay that into our own tech stack. And so we've been finding opportunities, as you know, as chaos reigns, and that's when communication is more important, and that's where client out outreach and ideas and concepts are born.

Yeah, so I know that you probably sleep about 90 minutes a night because you, you're, you're constantly wired. You've been incredible high energy individual, but one of the things I've been most impressed with is how you've been able to transfer your entrepreneurial mindset, how you've been able to transfer your boundless passion and energy.

To the people that, that are around you that maybe weren't naturally that way growing up. Has, has that been, again, an intentional effort onto your part? And if so, how do you do that? And if it has not been intentional and it has just been, you know, a, a result of, of life in general, what are you looking for as you recruit and you bring new partners to the table?

You know, listen, nobody does it alone. As you, as you know, surrounding yourself with great, smart people that are way smarter than you and make you look good is half the battle. What's really unique is you don't want everyone, like myself in the organization and, and I think having that organizational awareness that you need someone who.

Is really analytical and thoughtful and not all type A and it's not always about them. You would need folks who ha are relational. So I think as a leadership team, as we strategically take a step back to say, okay, what's the type of leaders that we need to be able to integrate as a collective, collective group and come to the market as one, I think is, is tremendously important.

I, I think, you know, there's a lot of things recently that, that we've been talking through as a leadership team and, and one is. How do we gain the trust of new folks coming into our firm? You know, 75% of the folks in our organization right now have been here less than three years, Phil, just from the org, just from pure acquisitions and recruitment.

And so how do you gain trust from those individuals? More importantly, how do you articulate to them the value prop that the organization of. What wealth management, as well as financial literacy and, and planning can really bring, especially when you get into a little bit of the, i, I would say the high strung entrepreneurs, the innovation economies, remember the whole world revolves and a lot of times around, you know, capital creation, which came out of Silicon Valley.

And so how do you penetrate into that? And there are great ideas that they may not have thought of. And, and being the thought leader, not only. Externally, but also inside your firm to show what good looks like. I, I think, is really starting to bear some fruit for us. Yeah, that is, that, that is an amazing statistic that 75% of your colleagues have less than 36 months with the organization.

So you, you talked about this issue of, of how do you gain trust and how do you get 'em to buy into the value proposition? But you know. There is a cultural ethos of your organization. I've, I've witnessed it firsthand for, for years. I've heard it through you, through your other colleagues, been able to, to, to be a part of many of those, those conversations.

That is a, uh, that, that is a big lift and I'm thinking about this. We have seen the, the m and a activity in. Financial institutions kick up in recent months. I, I, you know, my, my forecast is, you know, we've just seen early innings of what's likely to be quite a few m and a activities in the space in the coming months and years.

So if, if you were the, the, the coach to different people and, and different organizations that were going through acquisitions where they're bringing new people into the organization. You know, what's your blueprint? What's your guide star for helping to inculcate the cultural value of the organization and not do what you talked about you might have done 20, 25 years ago and just, I'm driving hard and this is, it's our way or the highway.

How do you do that in a way that, that, that respects the individual associate that establishes trust, but does inculcate that cultural value? Yeah, listen, I, I think it comes back to the individuals. I, I, I think it's having the empathetic view of everyone adds value. Nobody wakes up in the morning saying, I, I wanna be the worst person in the world.

Right? And nobody does that. I, I think it's valuing different. Different opinions as they come to the table. Now. Now you, you, you're not gonna take all the opinions. You can listen to them and take the best of both worlds, but at at the same time, you, there has to be a belief in what you're doing as a mission.

And, and I think if you articulate the mission, people can rally behind it. I think one of the things that we've all been impacted on is when new leadership comes in or organizations get together. We whipsaw the employees, which then whipsaws the clients. What I think is really important, and we do this not only with bringing acquired firms in, but as we're recruiting in and we recruit in, and one of the things, you know, I have a, a motto to a lot of the folks we bring in is for 60 days, just, just listen to what the organization is, don't open your mouth and make decisions because they're probably gonna be wrong.

For who we are as a company. It is not wrong from where you came from or what you learned, or statistically probably it was not incorrect. But how does it fit in the ecosystem that that we have as as our organization? And I, and I think that's one of the real cool things, and a lot of folks come back to me afterwards and say, Jesus, you were Abso.

I thought you were a complete moron. You are a complete moron. But the reality is, you know how it is. It's like, wow, you know? Great advice. And then I hear people now saying to the new people coming, Hey, just take your time, learn who we are as a company and move forward. Now that, that I can, I can tell you all of the great authors that write about business and what you should do is to get good quick wins early on.

But it's a little hard to unwind when you make a mistake early because that's the impression folks are, are with you on. And you know, no one ever remembers if you know. You did something a month after the deadline or whatever it might be. What they remember is you tried to cram it in too quick too soon and you messed it up.

Both employees and, and also the end client. I think long and steady is what wins this race. And I think that as you build on that and as we coach and bring people through, yes we have numbers we wanna hit, but Phil, if I bring a loan on in September, october, November, by the time the provision does, it doesn't even matter for the fourth quarter of the year, we're already through it.

So as you look forward, take the same philosophy that you really were selling now. Into the first quarter, second quarter of the year, and we should think the same length as we're bringing in onboarding our associates as well. It, anyway, that's what's worked for our firm, Phil. Yeah. Well, and it, again, it's worked exceptionally well.

I, I, I, I wanna ask you this because I am a, I'm a listener listening to this and my. My, my pushback on something that you just said is, well, sure in an organization where you've got a 5, 10, 15 year plan where, you know, you're not looking quarter to quarter, you can, you, you can take that approach, but, you know, don't, don't I have to get a quick win.

In this organization that does report on a quarterly basis, that micromanages, you know, the, the, the numbers and the results. How do you, how would you coach an individual there to be bold and to be that, that, that, that longer term view while at the same time fitting into the fabric? And, and maybe that's a tough question for you to ask because, or to answer because you're, you're not in that type of environment.

But do you have any thoughts on that? Y yeah, I think it's interesting. You know, I, where we are today as a firm is not where I came in. 10, 11, 12 years ago, there was a lot that had to be fixed and not fixed as structural, fixed to what are we trying to achieve as a company. I write down a, a list on, on the back of my door of all the things I needed to air, quote, fix, and then just took.

Four at a time, and then four at a time, and four at a time, and four at a time. And I, I would say one, you know, I would try to take it this way. What do I need to, to remedy for employees? What do I need to remedy for inside the firm to, you know, everyone says, you know, give me your clients, whatever, but how do we give back before we receive?

And then the other one is. What's the tech stack look like? How do you, how can you pull this off with the right technology? And then last but not least, how do you create the message and the leadership of the organization around you as much as the organization with you? So there are certain wins that you can get there, and some of it is partnership, awareness and alignment as much as it is results.

Listen, the results that we have, you know, I've got double digit growth. For the next five years to double the, to double the company. We've doubled it the first five years we're here. We've doubled the top line revenue the second five years, and we're preparing ourselves to double the next five years. Now you're probably thinking, yeah, pal, that's great.

You can double it by acquisitions. But quite honestly, the doubles in the revenues each every five years was all organic. It didn't come from acquisitions. The acquisition we picked up with Silicon Valley probably added about. Maybe about five to 6 billion to our assets, of which we already had $55 billion in assets.

So it wasn't that big of a financial impact relative to the balance sheet for our organization. So it's, you know. We've gotta make decisions, Phil, as as leaders, analyze what you have. Don't be pa paralyzed by it. Understand before you execute. But more importantly, try not to do it in a silo vertical because everything's interconnected.

And that's why I think a lot of us are still unwinding because, you know, the asset management firm did it one way. The brokerage crowd did another way, you know, the banking side, and none of the two shall meet. But we all know it's all integrated and that's what really we're striving for around the customer.

Customer doesn't care. You know how it's. They great experience. So that, that leads us to a good conversation. Mutual friend ofs Mark. Were talking several. We were kind of reminiscing on our, our career arts and, you know, things that, that have evolved. And I, I wanna, I want to talk to you about that. But you know, the, the comment he made is, today technology is so vital to the success of, of wealth management organizations.

You've mentioned technology two or three times. Why don't you give us your worldview on wealth management the day you were a, a newbie, you know, what was, what was most important then and how you've. How you've seen that evolved and kinda where you've seen wealth going over the next 5, 10, 15 years? Yeah.

You know, the tech stack is, is moving quickly. I, I think. A lot of us over the years have been really saddled with a number of items, number one, especially in the, the well side of the business. We seem to take the backseat to the commercial side of the house a a lot of reasons that go into that. But really before we built everything in specialization where everything just was in a particular silo and, and the data architecture and the metadata didn't traverse across the enterprise.

And I think now that we have to start thinking about is. Can I see all my stuff on a single pane of glass? And, and if I can see all my things there, then I can advise to it. And I think that that's really what it is. But I think the other thing is, is what I found over the years is I'm actually shrinking my tech stack to enable it, to be able to work together and, and transfer data between multiple systems.

All around the end consumer, which ultimately will then be able to tie into, you know, APIs that transfer data inside and outside the firm. And that's what's really gonna win. The ease of doing business and shrinking of the tech stack. Because we used to be all in mainframes, in in hardware that was not malleable.

And I think now what we've seen is, you know, the coming together of, you know. Configurability versus, you know, us customizing everything. Because once you customize it and then you have an upgrade, then everything gets broken, then that's a mess. So I think going forward, it's. Subtraction, you know, addition by subtraction, but more importantly, you don't have to really mess with books and records.

Phil books and records will remain books and records, and I think the digital experience that you can do, you won't have to go into the mainframe systems with various approvals. Now folks out there will be like, oh my gosh. You know, I'll never get it through my compliance and the risk people, you still don't give up your hierarchical approvals or authority into this core systems.

You just make the core systems come up and display the way you need to display it, and you can get there through multiple factor of authentication and what have you, and entitlements and rights. But that's really where I think the end end game is gonna be the people who simplify and bring it to the client quicker.

Are gonna be the ones that are able to capture and display information, and more importantly, give advice in, in real time. Back to that end consumer. We're all fighting against Amazon and you know the, everything's gonna be at our fingertips and we have to get a lot better at it. You know, I, I, I love what you said about Amazon right there, because you know, when I, I, I talked to advisory firms, I was like, you, you're not competing with the bank across the street or the brokerage house down the street, or you know, the local RIA, you're competing with the mindset of the client and they expect to be able to go on their app and order their coffee and.

You know, go to the pickup line, get it and go. And it's a, a, a seamless transaction. Same thing with Amazon and Amazon Prime, same thing. I mean, you go down the list. And so the consumer today has these expectations of ease of doing business and we, we obviously have to embrace that. And the client facing professionals, it's, it, it, it's not a, a tool to be used.

It is something to simplify the client experience. Right. Yeah. I think it's interesting. I think look at all the AI that's happening. You know, you hear about a number of companies, J just look at, you know, copilot, record a conversation, create a summary of what happened, prepare emails. You know, send it a note, a reminder puts it in the calendar.

That's gonna make life a lot easier of all the mundane things that we had to do to be able to capture that information and then warehouse that information and, and I think it's, I think it's gonna come here pretty quickly, Phil. I really do. I think it's gonna allow us as advisors that much more time to be able to then interact with the clients.

I don't think you're gonna get away from the. Human element of advice because you're dealing with someone's money. I can, I can read a piece of paper and say, this is what will do for me, for my taxes and lower it or whatever, but do I trust the person on the other side? I think that's still, you know, we have to figure out how do you get empathy from a teams meeting?

Everything's remote. So how do we chain? How do we train advisors to be able to figure that out? Because a lot of times you're dealing with folks remotely, but we have to have that au authenticity come through, and more importantly, the trust has to come through as well. Yeah, this is our pen penultimate question.

Human capital, what are you looking for in leaders and perhaps even more importantly, client facing advisors today? I mean, obviously we like a good track record. Obviously we like, you know, they've got a good core book of relationships, et cetera. But perhaps on, on, on the power skills and, uh, the cultural values and things like that, it, what are you looking for?

Yeah. You know what's interesting? I just had a discussion this week with my HR partner and, and what I said I, I want to do going into 26, is I wanna look at the skills that we used to look at versus the skills that we're gonna need going forward. There's gonna be a lot of skills that we used to look at before they're gonna be obsolete, right?

The, the folks that could read a trust instrument overnight and do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We needed before or an instrument. I can read that with ai. I can do OCR in, in, in technology. I think the social interactive skills of folks that are lifelong learners that are well-rounded, can give advice and really can connect are, are gonna be the ones that.

Skill we're gonna need going forward? I think we can get the technical side. I think the human and the, the human interaction and the folks that are relatable is gonna be a skill that we have. I mean, look at your kids and my kids, it's, it's interesting, you know, I call 'em on the, on the phone. They don't pick up.

I send 'em a text, they send me back right away. I'm like, you know, it's like, what the heck just happened here? You know? And so, yeah. I think especially coming through COVID and and the age of social media, I think we're gonna have to make sure that we start to adapt a new set of skills as we continue to look forward.

Not to say you were gonna abandon, you know, the financial literacy and what have you, but I think the learning skills and the softer side, I think we have to play some greater emphasis on. I, I, I tremendously agree with you on that. So, final question, Michael. We always ask our guests on the Cannon curve, the, uh, same final question.

You had a little time, I guess to think about it, having listened to some other, uh, other podcasts. And so question's real simple. If you had the opportunity to go back and have a coaching conversation with 23-year-old. Michael Wilson. Yeah. But having had all of the experiences and life lessons that you've gained since that point in time, what piece of advice would you give that young man?

Yeah, I think that's, that's a, that's a loaded question. I would say slow down and understand the other person's point of view. Learn from them. And your way isn't always the right way. And I think, you know, we started the dialogue today Phil, by saying, you know, what are the other things? And I think that's one of the things I've learned over time is as we're interacting, as we're building companies, as we're leading through others, I think the ability to take multiverse opinions and then formulate what the long-term view will be, chart a, a very clear path.

And as a leader, be decisive. By no decision. You have a decision, but be, make an informed decision by what you know. So that's what I would say to the younger individual at 20, 30 years old, because it was, it's been quite a ride. Well, it has been a heck of a ride and it, it's interesting that you bring up the scenario of, of listening to other people's point of view intentionally and intently.

I'll just close this by saying I have watched you do that in every type of environment, from social settings to business settings, and I've watched you truly listen and, and repeat back what you've heard. It. It wasn't that you always agreed with the point of view, but you were learning something and that that.

Lifelong learning, you know that that obviously has served you incredibly well. Michael Wilson, senior Executive for Wealth and Consumer Banking at First Citizens. Thank you for being a guest on the Cannon Curve. Thank you, Phil. Glad to be here. The Cannon Curve is a production of Cannon Financial Institute.

Executive producer of the Cannon Curve is Sarah Jones. Editing and mixing is done by Danny Bruner. To each of you, we want to thank you for staying ahead of the curve and we'll see you in december.